Aaron Sorkin on Nicole Kidman as Lucille Ball in Being the Ricardos – The Hollywood Reporter

Years in the past, earlier than Aaron Sorkin made Molly’s Recreation or The Trial of the Chicago 7, producer Todd Black requested a gathering. Black’s growth government on the time had written her faculty thesis on Lucille Ball, and the 2 felt strongly that there was a film in Ball’s story, and that the Oscar-winning screenwriter was the one to inform it.

Sorkin wasn’t so certain.

“It was a couple of year-and-a-half earlier than a sure,” he acknowledges now, although he additionally says he virtually all the time labors over such selections as films are gargantuan commitments of time and, earlier than pen hits paper, he needs to be fairly certain he can ship. (The Social Community was the uncommon exception, says Sorkin: “I heard concerning the lawsuits towards Mark Zuckerberg, and I mentioned sure instantly.”)

Nonetheless, he was sufficient to maintain assembly with Black each few months, till he in the end signed on. “There have been simply all of those fascinating conflicts, and that’s what I’m on the lookout for,” says Sorkin. “Factors of friction that add as much as one thing that you may write about.” The primary one to seize his consideration was the truth that Lucille Ball had been accused of being a communist, which he admits he knew nothing of getting in. However there have been different compelling factors of friction, too: within the marriage between Lucy and Desi, as an illustration, and the truth that she, a midcentury sitcom star, was pregnant with their youngster.

Earlier than lengthy, Sorkin settled on his construction: The Amazon Studios movie can be set throughout a single manufacturing week of I Love Lucy, starting with the Monday desk learn and ending with the Friday shoot earlier than a studio viewers. Positive, he’d sprinkle in flashbacks, exhibiting Lucy and Desi’s tumultuous relationship and the way the 2 received to the beloved Nineteen Fifties sequence, however every little thing else, for the sake of the narrative, would happen throughout these few days in September 1952. As soon as a script was written, Nicole Kidman was employed as Lucy, and Javier Bardem got here aboard as Desi. The forged was crammed out by J.Okay. Simmons (as William Frawley) and Nina Arianda (Vivian Vance), and Sorkin agreed he’d direct as nicely, marking his third go-round in that twin position.

Forward of Being the Ricardos’ theatrical launch on Dec. 10, adopted by its Prime Video rollout Dec. 21, Sorkin opened as much as The Hollywood Reporter concerning the controversies surrounding the casting of Kidman and Bardem, the parallels to latest notions of cancel tradition, and the ability of Lucy and Desi’s real-life daughter’s endorsement.

What did you need the movie to say about Lucy, about Desi and about their relationship?

Past the accusation of communism, there have been different issues that actually me, like the truth that Lucille Ball was nothing like Lucy Ricardo, and he or she appeared nothing like Lucy Ricardo. She’s sort of like Charlie Chaplin in that means. When most individuals consider Charlie Chaplin, they consider The Little Tramp, however Chaplin doesn’t look something like Little Tramp. And when most individuals consider Lucille Ball and Desi Arnaz, they’re considering of Lucy and Ricky. However Lucille Ball was extra of a Rita Hayworth, Jessica Rabbit-looking actress. And the highway that she took to I Love Lucy was an fascinating one. The highway that Desi took to I Love Lucy was an fascinating one.

So, I used to be within the distinction between Lucy and Ricky and Lucy and Desi, after which throw in a sort of strained relationship that Lucille Ball had with Vivian Vance, and throw within the sort of Damon Runyon character that William Frawley was, and out of the blue there have been these tales to inform. The truth that, as an illustration, Desi got here from a tradition that had a really slim definition of manhood, and as exhausting as he tried, and as a lot as he cherished Lucy and actually admired and revered her expertise, it was troublesome for him to be second banana. And Desi himself was an awfully proficient man. As Lucy mentioned, “He would’ve been a film star if there was such a factor as a Cuban film star.” So, what I search for is fascinating factors of friction, and out of the blue they had been bobbing up all over.

I believe it’s truthful to say that Lucy is among the most vital feminine figures of the twentieth century to not have gotten the movie remedy prior to now. What sort of stress does that include for you?

When it comes to stress, I sort of max out it doesn’t matter what. I don’t assume there’s ever been a time I’ve written one thing meant for different individuals to see that I didn’t really feel the utmost quantity of stress. However as phrase received out that I used to be doing this, what I found is that there are people who find themselves actually obsessed with I Love Lucy. For me, it’s nostalgic. I keep in mind watching I Love Lucy reruns after I was dwelling sick from faculty. It’s not a present that if we took a contemporary take a look at right now, we’d assume was humorous, I don’t assume. However there are individuals who take into account these 4 individuals their greatest mates. So, I knew that that was on the market, nevertheless it’s not like, “Properly, now I actually higher write a great film.” I’ve been making an attempt to do this all alongside. I used to be conscious that for the actress who will get forged, we’re asking plenty of her and we’re placing her within the crosshairs, so I wish to do proper by that actress. I actually wish to construct a ship that received’t sink.

When it got here to casting, how did you navigate what you needed and what viewers expectations can be? And, to that finish, how do you put together whoever you resolve to forged for the virtually inevitable blowback?

I couldn’t forged Desi till we had our Lucy. What I wanted was somebody who completely owns it. And also you’re going to select from a small pool of world-class actresses. This isn’t for learners, as Lucy says. This was going to be a sort of tour de pressure efficiency. After which when Nicole Kidman and Javier Bardem and J.Okay. Simmons and Nina Arianda say they wish to do your film, your casting search is over. You begin out making graphs and charts and this and issues like that, after which out of the blue it will get straightforward. 

There have been some fairly vocal critics of Nicole Kidman’s casting, and I imagine their main situation is that she doesn’t appear like the lady they watched on TV for all these years. What do you make of the blowback?

We made this film throughout COVID, and so in Zooming with Nicole and Javier and everybody else, I’d make it very clear to them that I’m not on the lookout for a bodily or vocal impersonation of those individuals. Main as much as the primary rehearsal, I’d write to them on daily basis, “Simply play the characters who’re within the script.” I do know that Nicole was engaged on Lucy’s voice for some time, and I needed to alleviate her of that. So far as viewers anticipation, that’s one thing I’m simply not nervous about. I’m sure that when individuals see the film, they’ll depart feeling that Nicole has made a really strong case for herself, however furthermore, I’ve discovered that you may actually leverage low expectations. I discovered that with The Social Community. Folks assumed it was going to be a romantic comedy, the place, like, Paul Rudd “mates” Drew Barrymore and so they fall in love. And I simply thought, “Nice, they’re not anticipating what they’re about to see.”

And also you assume the identical shall be true of Being the Ricardos?

I do. Now the actual fact of the matter is when Nicole, as Lucille Ball, performs Lucy Ricardo, I believe she does an unbelievable job of mimicking Lucy. Identical with Javier, Nina and J.Okay. However there may be, in complete, lower than three minutes of I Love Lucy on this movie, and the one motive the I Love Lucy materials is there may be as a result of we’re in Lucy’s head and we’re seeing that she is a comedic chess grasp, that she will be able to mission forward to what [the show] goes to appear like on Friday evening, and the way the viewers goes to react and whether or not this joke goes to work. So, discovering an actress who appeared like Lucille Ball wasn’t vital to me, particularly as a result of I used to be excited by the concept Lucille Ball doesn’t appear like Lucille Ball — and that each time we’re seeing Lucille Ball not as Lucy Ricardo, she ought to each actually and metaphorically let her hair down. Let her be what she’s not allowed to be on TV in 1952 on CBS. Let her be a girl. Let her be attractive. You weren’t allowed to be attractive on TV.

Not at the moment, no.

TV was a household proposition in its infancy. And taking a look at these dwelling films that [her daughter] Lucie Arnaz gave me of Lucy and Desi simply hanging out by the pool, you must look twice, like, is that Marilyn? She’s in no way Lucy Ricardo. And I used to be excited by that distinction.

Your resolution to forged Javier as Ricky performs into a bigger dialog that’s being had about who can play what, and already we’ve seen the Latinx neighborhood be vocal with its displeasure over a Spanish actor taking part in the a part of a Cuban. Had been these conversations you and the producers had been having from the start? Presumably, you had been conscious that this was going to be a story?

To begin with, Amazon’s casting division had a Latina casting marketing consultant [who was focused on all Latinx casting] on board. I discovered, as an illustration, as a result of there was an actor who I used to be contemplating who’s Brazilian, and I used to be advised by the casting marketing consultant that Brazilians aren’t thought-about Latino as a result of they converse Portuguese. So, Javier is Spanish and the casting marketing consultant was high-quality with it. However I don’t wish to use the casting marketing consultant as cowl. I wish to let you know my opinion on this and I stand by it, which is that this: Spanish and Cuban aren’t actable, okay? They’re not actable. By the best way, neither are straight and homosexual. As a result of I do know there’s a small motion underway that solely homosexual actors ought to play homosexual characters. Homosexual and straight aren’t actable. You could possibly act being drawn to somebody, however most nouns aren’t actable.

We all know after we’re being demeaning. We all know that Black face is demeaning due to its historic context since you’re making ridiculous cartoon caricatures out of individuals. We all know that Mickey Rooney with the foolish piece in Breakfast at Tiffany’s and that make-up doing foolish Japanese converse, we all know that’s demeaning. This isn’t, I felt. Having an actor who was born in Spain taking part in a personality who was born in Cuba was not demeaning. And it wasn’t simply the casting marketing consultant who agreed, Lucy and Desi’s Cuban American daughter didn’t have an issue with it. So, I’m very comfy with it.

I’m curious what parallels you see between the McCarthy period in Hollywood and cancel tradition right now?

There are parallels. Clearly, the Home [Un-American Activities Committee], Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn, had the pressure of presidency behind them. They may lock individuals up.

And Twitter doesn’t have that energy?

Properly, right here’s the ability that Twitter has …

I used to be kidding, but additionally sort of not.

No, no, I do know what you’re saying, however the dangerous guys through the blacklist, it wasn’t simply Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn. Joe McCarthy and Roy Cohn would have been powerless if it wasn’t for this different committee whose job it was, if the community needs to rent me on a tv sequence, it was their job to inform the community whether or not that was OK, whether or not a man who owned a few supermarkets on Lengthy Island was going to be OK with the community promoting their product throughout my present. If the studio heads and community heads had advised these teams to take a stroll, and had simply not listened to them, every little thing would have been high-quality. And so, as an illustration, if we had been to speak about Dave Chappelle for a second, I actually may make a rebuttal argument towards various the factors that he makes in his particular, however I’ve completely no argument with Netflix and Ted Sarandos for placing it on their platform, and what we’d like are extra individuals to say no to — and that’s what Twitter is, Twitter is that committee that claims whether or not or not you may abuse somebody, and so they should be ignored. Truly, I’ll use one other instance a bit nearer to dwelling, should you don’t thoughts.

Please…

My play, To Kill a Mockingbird, needed to shut down together with everybody else a 12 months in the past March, when Covid got here alongside, and through that year-and-a-half, 5 totally different faculty districts within the nation banned the instructing of To Kill a Mockingbird, together with The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn and Of Mice and Males. And other people will level out to me, “Properly, they use the N-word in To Kill a Mockingbird.” Isn’t it higher to have a dialogue at school about this? Isn’t it a possibility to speak about that phrase and why that phrase is sort of holy in its energy? In different phrases, I simply strongly imagine, and now greater than ever after we’re residing in a frighteningly divided tradition, that folks speaking to one another is the best way out and that banning issues isn’t. Banning books, banning individuals. Now, I wish to be clear, it’s one factor if somebody is spreading harmful misinformation or if due to somebody’s speech, persons are getting crushed up or worse, that’s completely totally different. However simply somebody offending you? I simply assume that’s the price of doing enterprise in a free society.

I believe that there are layers to it….

There are, it’s very nuanced. And once more, I’d be all-in on having a dialogue about this.

As you’ve typically mentioned, writing is a protracted, intense course of for you. I’m curious how penning this in comparison with others?

There was nobody alive to speak to for this, for first-hand analysis. We made contact with a person who was a digital camera operator on I Love Lucy, however he wasn’t in a position to inform me a lot that I wanted. And there are books, however a lot of the books, frankly, aren’t excellent. They had been written for I Love Lucy followers, so there’s not going to be any dangerous information in there. Desi wrote an autobiography, nevertheless, and he’s an excellent storyteller, so there have been some terrific tales and he doesn’t thoughts supplying you with dangerous information. What was additionally very useful was the house film footage that Lucie Arnaz, their daughter, was in a position to present. You had requested me what drew me to this, and one factor was simply how totally different these two had been from what the notion of them was and continues to be. Once more, individuals will say, “Who’s taking part in Fred?” Or, “Who’s taking part in Ethel?” And I’ve to remind them that it’s J.Okay. Simmons who’s taking part in William Frawley and Ariana who’s taking part in Vivian Vance, and they’re taking part in Fred and Ethel. However Lucy, specifically, was not a straightforward lady, and I simply noticed the potential for scenes that would add as much as one thing. And I assumed, “OK, if I swing nicely, I’ll hit it.”

Why do you assume Lucille Ball has not gotten the movie remedy till now?

That’s most likely higher requested to Lucie Arnaz, who I ought to level out was very useful in getting me to a sure. All of us had lunch collectively, and he or she mentioned to me, “I do know my mom wasn’t a straightforward lady. Take the gloves off.” In different phrases, you may go for it. And with out that…

You wouldn’t have moved ahead?

No, I don’t assume so.

Lucie really got here to the set while you had been filming among the flashback scenes. Am I proper to imagine that you just felt flashback can be simpler for her to sit down by than people who depict her mother and father’ marital struggles?

For Nicole’s sake, I had mentioned, “Hear, Lucie can’t come to the set. I can’t ask Nicole to play her mom in entrance of her.” After which Nicole invited Lucie to the set. (Laughs.)

She’s since come out and given you and the movie what I think about is an important endorsement. Earlier than that, she mentioned that there have been issues that she had hoped you’d take out. What had been they?

Let me say, to start with, if anyone did a film about my mother and father, regardless of how nice the author or the director, regardless of how nice the actors, regardless of how nicely they captured my mother and father, I can’t think about liking the film. So, I actually love Lucie Arnaz for the general public statements that she made. There was some time when she had bother getting her arms round the truth that I used to be taking these three incidents — what we name the “Crimson Scare,” Desi exhibiting up on the quilt of Confidential journal with one other lady with the headline “Desi’s Wild Evening Out” and Lucy being pregnant — and I put them not simply in the identical 12 months, however in the identical week when these three issues occurred at three totally different occasions. After which there have been little issues that had been vital to her. For example, on the desk learn, there are little title playing cards in entrance of everyone. It’ll say Karl Freund, director of images, that sort of factor. She mentioned, “There have been no title playing cards.” And I mentioned, “That’s OK. Nobody’s going to have a look at that and say that it doesn’t look or appear correct, and people title playing cards are going to be useful to me.” So, that’s what she was reacting to. Then she noticed the film after which noticed it once more the subsequent evening with an viewers sitting subsequent to me and Nicole, and I believe that’s when she noticed what we had been after, what for a number of years I’d solely been speaking about.

You didn’t go in understanding that this is able to be one thing you’d direct. So, how was that call in the end made?

I wrote the script, and Todd and I met with a few actually nice administrators. Whereas that was taking place, I made [The Trial of the] Chicago 7, after which Todd noticed Chicago 7 and requested to me to direct Being the Ricardos. That was a straightforward sure.

The previous couple of issues that you just’ve written, you’ve got additionally directed. Do you assume you may return to, and are you curious about going again to writing issues that you just don’t direct? I ask as a result of I keep in mind listening to you, a pair years in the past, speaking about desirous to do a Social Community sequel however not until David Fincher was on board to direct.

It’s superb as a result of I really had a cellphone name about that very topic this morning. Have we actually gone nowhere because the time I mentioned that? What progress has been made? The reply to your query is not any, I’m not accomplished wanting work with nice administrators, and Fincher would definitely be on the highest of that checklist.

Do you continue to wish to make that film?

Properly, I don’t wish to make information right here. I believe what has been occurring with Fb these previous couple of years is a narrative very a lot value telling and there’s a strategy to inform it as a comply with as much as The Social Community, and that’s as a lot as I do know.

Interview has been edited for size and readability.